Return-Path: XPUM04@prime-a.central-services.umist.ac.uk Received: from G.SEI.CMU.EDU by ubu.cert.sei.cmu.edu (5.61/2.3) id AA21732; Thu, 7 Jun 90 17:51:40 -0400 Received: from SEI.CMU.EDU by g.sei.cmu.edu (5.61/2.5) id AA16398; Thu, 7 Jun 90 17:51:39 -0400 Received: from nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by sei.cmu.edu (5.61/2.3) id AA14467; Thu, 7 Jun 90 17:51:27 -0400 Received: from sun.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by vax.NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK via Janet with NIFTP id aa00108; 7 Jun 90 21:02 BST From: Anthony Appleyard To: KRVW <@NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK:KRVW@sei.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 90 14:02:52 BST Message-Id: <$TGVGDBVHCNWX at UMPA> Subject: Virus-L vol 0 issue #0608 Virus-L Digest Wed, 8 Jun 88, Volume 0 : Issue #0608 Today's Topics Digest or not digest - the decision Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet Re: Virus 101 Pseudo-machines and existence. Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet Virus Simulation Virus 101 class... Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 08:54:23 EDT Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: "Kenneth R. van Wyk" Subject: Digest or not digest - the decision With about 50 votes in (out of about 380 people on the VIRUS-L list), I've decided what to do about the digest/moderate "problem". First, though, I want to thank everyone who sent me their vote! All of your suggestions were great, and I hope that my decision will accomodate as many of you as possible! The decision: The list will remain unmoderated and undigested. *BUT*, I now have the back logs set to be stored on a weekly basis (as opposed to a monthly basis). So, those of you who prefer digest format can pick up a weekly VIRUS-L "digest" from the LISTSERV, and unsubscribe from the list itself. The weekly log filenames are of the form: VIRUS-L LOGyymmx (where yy is 88 for 1988, etc., mm is month, and x corresponds to the week - A for week 1, etc.). So, the first log file in June, 1988 would be VIRUS-L LOG8806A. So, once a week (or whenever), anyone who wants the digest can just send a GET VIRUS-L LOGyymmx command to LISTSERV@LEHIIBM1.BITNET. If you want to submit something to the list, you'll have to send them to me, and I'll forward them to the list (since only registered subscribers can submit articles). I hope that this decision will be satisfactory to as many of you as is possible. My reasoning behind the decision (as is evidenced by the responses that I got) is that the current volume of traffic is still low enough to keep non-digest believers happy, and that moderating (censoring) is best left to the discretion of the readers. This is what the majority of responses requested - the overall vote count was 36 to 15. In addition, I'd like to briefly (if that's still possible :-) point out a rule of netiquette that I'd like to see followed a bit more closely here on VIRUS-L. Please send responses to queries directly to the author of the query - not to the entire list. That way, the author can send in a summary of his/her responses to the list, and it *should* keep redundant traffic to a minimum. This isn't an attempt to discourage discussions, it's merely an attempt to keep the quality of VIRUS-L mail to a maximum. Thank you for your time. Comments and suggestions, as always, are welcomed - send them to me directly at LUKEN@LEHIIBM1.BITNET. Ken - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = Kenneth R. van Wyk = = = User Services Senior Consultant = This page intentionally = = Lehigh University Computing Center = left blank. = = Internet: = = = BITNET: = = - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = Kenneth R. van Wyk = = = User Services Senior Consultant = This page intentionally = = Lehigh University Computing Center = left blank. = = Internet: = = = BITNET: = = - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 11:19:00 EDT Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: Stan Horwitz Subject: Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue 7 Jun 88 11:44:25 EDT Even though John Applegate's contention that computer spread virii and other similar types of computer maladies do not exist, I can understand how he arrived at that conclusion. In my case I have never seen anything virii but the subject is of great interest to me. I am a bit of a hacker, but a very kind one and cannot understand why someone would knowingly spread a computer illness around. It makes no sense. Here at Temple, to the best of my knowledge, I have not heard of any virii invasions. Our students do not have use of hard disk based machines and most are not aware of the capability of using BITNET. But even though I have never seen the destruction a computer virus might do, I would have to be very ignorant to say that none exist. I have never seen a person with lung cancer from smoking legal and illegal substances but that certainly doesn't mean that lung cancer does not exist. -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 11:20:15 mdt Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was From: Bill Kinnersley Subject: Re: Virus 101 In other words, for educational purposes, have your class write viruses that only infect, say, the Apple III. With nearest hosts 50 miles apart, the chance of contagion is small. This sounds like a good argument for INcompatibility among computer systems. --Bill Kinnersley iphwk@mtsunix1 -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 13:08:42 EDT Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: me! Jefferson Ogata Subject: Pseudo-machines and existence. I curious - what would a pseudo-machine virus do to indicate its virusness? I've seen compilers written to produce code on pseudo- machines. The code gets interpreted by the pseudo-machine later. What does pseudo-machine virus code do? A good virus would have to be self-replicating. If the pseudo-machine provides disk I/O, there's no technique I know of that the pseudo-machine could use to prevent virus spread. If the virus is to be a good example, it must infect something. Perhaps it infects other pseudo-code? Students are still perfectly free to have it infect regular machine-code, or possibly the pseudo-code interpreter. While infections of pseudo- code must be done with pseudo-code, infections of normal machine-code will be just as virulent as ever, since they'll require machine-code. I never heard the guy say viruses don't exist. It sounded to me like he said: > Not one of these experts had ever found a bonified virus and only one > could claim to have found a trojan! The general consensus was that > while viruses might exist their occurance was far more rare than the > media hype would indicate! This is an expression of a consensus of opinion that specifically states that viruses may exist. I've never seen a virus myself. I've heard of two: a MS-DOS virus that infects COMMAND.COM, and a Unix virus in the AT&T C compiler that prints a happy birthday message for the author every year. - Jeff Ogata -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 14:30:09 EDT Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 7 Jun 88 11:44:25 EDT from > >I for one publically doubt the existance of the virus they claim to have >discovered since SEX.EXE can be found on several BBS's in a harmless, >though tasteless form! When confronted on the phone their rep still refused >to participate in our discussion or to produce this virus in order to >confirm it was anything other than a marketing ploy. > Could be. I can't see why the company in question would be uninterested in addressing a group of potential cutomers. >The panel consisted of several sysops, a security expert from Storage Tek, >a computer crime lawyer and a law professor. > Well, scratch the last 3. Viruses are tough to get in to a well-guarded IBM mainframe system. And why should a lawyer or a law professor ever have seen a virus unless he or she is an avid user of PD software? > ... claim to have found a trojan! The general consensus was that while >viruses might exist their occurance was far more rare than the media >hype would indicate! > I agree. But I would substitute "do exist". >It was also agreed that much of this hype is a result of advertizing from >companies claiming to have a solution to viruses... it was even proposed >that some of these viruses might originate with such companies. > Well, I don't know about this claim. From my experience on the Mac, only real people who have had real problems have been writing programs to get rid of viruses. I don't think people who are distributing software for free are profiting all that much from a virus plague, imaginary or real. -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 14:48:21 EDT Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Virus Simulation Mark Eichin, thank you. That removes the last problem I had with teaching how to write viruses. Write all of the viruses you want. They won't screw up anybody's system. - - Joe M. -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 16:19:00 EST Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: ACS045@GMUVAX Subject: Virus 101 class... My general feeling about this is that the idea was good, but it was the execution that was flawed. Some sort of "confined" pseudo-environment would have been more appropriate for viral development, if the project itself was apprpriate in the first place. Which I think it was. Mind you I say the *IDEA*, not the actual way it was executed(trying to avoid the FLAMES of hellfire--not to mention those of the net). What it comes down to is basically something that society has gone over and over in countless other fields. How do you teach somebody how to make a strain of wheat grow 50% larger than normal?---teach them genetic engineering...How do we keep the country safe from others nuking it?--educate people on how to assemble missiles for ourselves... How can you teach people to defuse a bomb?--try starting with what makes on tick Of course there's nothing to prevent prevent anybody from taking any of this sort of knowledge and perverting it into something destructive(making their own virus, building their own a-bomb,etc.) save for numerous preliminary tests, security clearances, and basically trusting them(which is what is ULTIMATELY comes down to), which really isn't worth that much in hand.... You can either lock up the information and hide it away on the grounds that its too dangerous and destructive for anyone to know,(which doesn't stop those out there who know already), or you can give it to people who(hopefully) you can trust will put it to appropriate use. There really isn't any other option... As to whoever said that Virii don't exist Trust me, they do, I've seen them and lost numerous files and floppies to the peksy buggers...We got majorly "(c)BRAIN"ed this past semester here at George Mason, and it wasn't funny... However, I must admit that I have only seen 2 strains so far..the "Brain" virus and the PLAYBOY virus, both of which only affect PCs.... They certainly aren't as big a threat as the media would like them to be, but they are out there.... -------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jun 88 17:46:54 CST Reply-To: Virus Discussion List Sender: Virus Discussion List From: David Camp Subject: Re: Virus *opinion* from the Usenet In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 8 Jun 88 11:19:00 EDT from > Even though John Applegate's contention that computer spread virii and >other similar types of computer maladies do not exist, I can understand how >he arrived at that conclusion. Even before the advent of VIRUS-L, the lists occasionally flurried with reports of viruses and trojans as they were discovered. The obvious practice is to notify the archive servers, so that the infection can be nipped-in-the-bud. Perhaps it has been this practice of voluntary cooperation that has prevented any major epidemics from occurring, and a consequent low observation rate. -David- > > In my case I have never seen anything virii but the subject is of great >interest to me. I am a bit of a hacker, but a very kind one and cannot >understand why someone would knowingly spread a computer illness around. >It makes no sense. Here at Temple, to the best of my knowledge, I have not >heard of any virii invasions. Our students do not have use of hard disk >based machines and most are not aware of the capability of using BITNET. >But even though I have never seen the destruction a computer virus might do, >I would have to be very ignorant to say that none exist. I have never seen >a person with lung cancer from smoking legal and illegal substances but that >certainly doesn't mean that lung cancer does not exist. *----------------------------------------------------------------------* | (314) 362-3635 Mr. David J. Camp | | ~ Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 | | Room 1108D < * > Washington University Medical School | | 706 South Euclid v 660 South Euclid | | Saint Louis, MO 63110 | | Bitnet: C04661DC@WUVMD.BITNET | | Internet: C04661DC%WUVMD.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU | | or: david@wubios.wustl.edu | *----------------------------------------------------------------------* -------------------- *** end of Virus-L issue ***